End of Life Doula Briget Kelly on Death Literacy, Grief, Loss, Music and her business: Rhiannon's Service - #05

"She lovingly carries souls from Earth to the afterlife plane, upon her trusty white horse helping them adjust to the transition of life after death.”

I interviewed Adelaide-based Briget Kelly who is an end-of-life doula. We chatted about loss, death in art forms, the stages of grief, and more.

Briget's list of funeral songs:

You're So Cool - Hans Zimmer
Hymn to Her - The Pretenders
All Night Loud - The Cat Empire
Forever Young - Youth Group
Meet Me in the Middle of the Air - Paul Kelly

Books Briget has recently read with death elements:

Cloudstreet
Bridge to Terabithia
Harry Potter (especially Deathly Hallows)
All Our Shimmering Skies
The Dictionary of Lost Words
Moonstone

Connect with Briget Kelly through her Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Rhian.Service/ or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/rhian.service/

View the beautiful tree image that Briget has on her business card here 

Which songs would you have at your funeral? Which books have you read recently with strong death elements? Drop me a line via my social links below. x

Watch this episode on Youtube 

Chapters

• 3:21 What does an end of life doula do?
• 8:08 How Briget and I met
• 13:06 Briget shares her list of funeral songs
• 17:15 Con Te Partirò by Andrea Bocelli
• 23:30 David Bowie
• 26:39 Death in fiction
• 29:47 The significance of the name 'Rhiannon's Service'
• 34:58 Using the pendulum for decision making
• 37:31 Memento Mori
• 41:59 Visiting a death cafè
• 48:30 Briget's 'life story sessions' program

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:33:51


00:00:33:51 - 00:00:47:20
Briget Kelly
The thing about grief is that there's so much of it in our lives. We don't even always recognize that there's things that we're grieving about, you know? So throughout our life, we have

00:00:47:20 - 00:01:02:08
Briget Kelly
a lot of losses. You know, that might be loss of a relationship, loss of a job, loss of a house, loss of a child, loss of our memory, loss of our independence, you know, all kinds of things.

00:01:02:08 - 00:01:19:09
Briget Kelly
And loss involves grief. So grief from one event in our life can sometimes come back at another time in our life when we go through a different grief event.

00:01:19:09 - 00:01:28:46
Briget Kelly
Sometimes we don't even really realize it because our brains are so complex and our hearts and souls are so complex and grief is such a complex thing

00:01:28:46 - 00:01:29:07
Briget Kelly
too.

00:01:29:14 - 00:02:02:21


00:02:02:21 - 00:02:11:34
Genevra Siciliano
today I'm chatting to my close friend Briget Kelly, who left a public service job to build her business as an end of life doula

00:02:11:34 - 00:02:37:31
Genevra Siciliano
--I'm going to talk about you as if you are not here. (Laughs) What I like about her business journey so far is that it's a gentle one, and she's growing her business with her own pacing and from what I understand, she's learning a lot about herself in that process. Briget is all for helping people through their fears around death.

00:02:37:36 - 00:02:55:58
Genevra Siciliano
And I think our friendship has even helped me from that point of view. And I've never been a fan of talking about death in detail. And I think there's been a shift since I met Bridget. So we're going to explore that and a lot more. So

00:02:55:58 - 00:02:59:09
Genevra Siciliano
hi Briget.

Briget Kelly Hi Gen, thanks for having me here.  

00:02:59:09 - 00:03:01:21
Genevra Siciliano
Thanks for being here.

00:03:01:21 - 00:03:05:30
Genevra Siciliano
So let's start with... what is an end of life

00:03:05:30 - 00:03:36:04
Genevra Siciliano
doula exactly, and what led you to consider becoming one? Briget Kelly So, an end of life doula is sometimes called a death doula. There are other similar terms as well. Doula means to be of service and so an end of life doula supports people at the end of life. That being said, there's a very broad range of help that an end of life doula can give to people.

00:03:36:09 - 00:04:07:25
Briget Kelly
So that might be just helping somebody prepare an advance care directive in their will, and some of those more legal documents. For other people, it might be going through their end of life, if they have a terminal illness or something like that, and being with them right up until the end and perhaps even supporting family and friends after they've died with bereavement as well. It depends what people want and what resources they already have.

00:04:07:30 - 00:04:40:19
Briget Kelly
Part of an end of life doula’s role is just to be that extra pair of hands to support that person with what they want and need and to help them have more choice and control over their end of life. Briget Kelly And so with your experiences so far, is the role what you expected? 
Briget Kelly Yeah. Well you mentioned that I've started my business gently and so I haven't had a lot of experience as yet with people at the end of life.

00:04:40:24 - 00:05:04:54
Briget Kelly
I've certainly done the training and have had lots of conversations with people and doing some of those other roles of an end of life doula, which is things like education and awareness and building what we call death literacy, which is just helping people to become more comfortable with talking about death and dying. Genevra Siciliano Death literacy. Wow.

00:05:04:58 - 00:05:15:13
Briget Kelly
Yeah. So I haven't journeyed, for want of a better term, with many people when they're actually dying.

00:05:15:13 - 00:05:20:03
Genevra Siciliano
Is that something you want to do more of? What do you want to delve into?

00:05:20:03 - 00:05:26:55
Briget Kelly
Look, I think there's so many different experiences that you can have with people at the end of life.

00:05:26:55 - 00:06:03:44
Briget Kelly
And because people's needs are so varied and different, I'm open to whatever comes along for me. I do have some personal experience with people at the end of life, and that's partly what brought me to become an end of life doula -- which I just realized was one of your first questions -- (laugh) -- yeah, so I feel comfortable being in that space, even if I haven't actually had the direct experience of being there when somebody has actually died or had some particular experience that I haven't experienced myself.

00:06:03:48 - 00:06:13:56
Genevra Siciliano
I think with what you've chosen to do, being comfortable in that space is, is key. Briget Kelly I agree. Yeah. It's not for everybody. 

00:06:13:56 - 00:06:37:41
Genevra Siciliano
So you and I are big music fans, and yesterday there was the death of Tina Turner, and I was doing some reading, and apparently because of her kidney issues, she was ready to be involved with an assisted suicide group called Exit.

00:06:37:46 - 00:07:13:21
Genevra Siciliano
And naturally, I thought of you because you're the only person I know of that’s had a direct experience with voluntary assisted dying and I know there's different names for that process. Are there any distinct differences between them? Briget Kelly Yeah, so in different countries around the world where there is this kind of, opportunity, for some people to end their life on their terms,

00:07:13:26 - 00:07:40:08
Briget Kelly
there are different names for it in different countries. A lot of that really comes down to the legislation that is behind that ability to, to end people's lives. And also, I think from what I understand, the extent of involvement from the medical community as well, and that's why there's different terminologies between different countries.

00:07:40:08 - 00:08:00:01
Briget Kelly
So, so assisted suicide is, is what exit uses. But other countries do use voluntary euthanasia, legally assisted dying, physician assisted dying. In Australia we use voluntary assisted dying. Genevra Siciliano Yeah.

00:08:00:01 - 00:08:36:32
Genevra Siciliano
Should we quickly talk about how we met? Briget Kelly Yeah, why not. Do you want to start it off or you want me to? Genevra Siciliano I think you should! Briget Kelly All right, well, we are school mums, and we met when our sons were in reception. Well, the first meeting that I remember with Gen is we were walking back to our cars after doing the, the school drop off and at the time I was going through chemo because I've had cancer before and I was wearing--I don't know, a beanie or a scarf.

00:08:36:32 - 00:09:01:28
Briget Kelly
I'm not quite sure what it was. Gen might remember-- Genevra Siciliano You were all in white... Briget Kelly 
(Laugh) Yeah, right. And, uh, I don't know how we got to talking about it, but I'm pretty open about most things in my life, and certainly about cancer. And I just mentioned that to Gen, and I just remember her reaction.

00:09:01:28 - 00:09:24:07
Briget Kelly
She was just immediately so caring and compassionate and, uh, got quite teary and was really just so concerned. Genevra Siciliano I think my breath got caught in my throat because I'd never, I'd actually never met --up until that point--never met anyone that had gone through chemo... you know, was going through cancer.

00:09:24:07 - 00:09:55:58
Genevra Siciliano
after I learned about your pivotal health experiences and the caregiving roles that you had taken on in your life, I quickly established that you are a life warrior of some sort and that you've got superhuman emotional strength. It made a huge amount of sense to me that you stepped into an end of life doula role.

00:09:56:03 - 00:09:58:56
Genevra Siciliano
So I just wanted you to say that. Briget Kelly Thank you.

00:09:58:56 - 00:10:24:34
Genevra Siciliano
And, you know, even at that time, about a year ago, when I saw that nonfiction book at your place, which was called The Lost Art of Dying, I thought to myself, yep, that's Bridget. That's clearly what makes her tick. But this got me thinking about overarching themes in our life and how most of us have to overcome some sort of prominent issue.

00:10:24:42 - 00:11:04:55
Genevra Siciliano
Not always, but sometimes we have an overarching theme, and for me I think it's independence, which is another story for another day. Do you think yours is grief? Briget Kelly Yeah. I think it's probably only recently that I've really understood that that it is grief. But when I look back over my life and see some of the challenges that I've had, even if I was to put another name to those challenges, at the heart of those experiences is grief and loss.

00:11:05:00 - 00:11:35:06
Briget Kelly
So things like the death of my mom when I was 26 and having cancer, and having other physical and mental illnesses that has really affected my life and having to deal with the loss of perhaps what might have been in my life or the fact that I ended up taking different paths. And so I've had to let go of some of the ideas of how I thought my life might turn out.

00:11:35:11 - 00:11:58:39
Briget Kelly
My nan, who I was very close to, who actually lived a very long life, but did have dementia at the end, which changes the relationship that you have. Yeah. So I can definitely see that there's been, you know, a lot of loss and grief in my life. Different forms of it. 

00:11:58:39 - 00:12:08:34
Genevra Siciliano
you spoke to me recently, I don't know if you want to get into this, but was it the tarot person who-- Briget Kelly Oh, the kinesiologist?

00:12:08:39 - 00:12:33:58
Briget Kelly
Yes, she mentioned to me that it's my soul contract, you know. So that's if you believe in reincarnation and those kinds of things, you know, if we're here to learn a lesson or to do something, in this iteration of life, then I think that grief is the lesson. 

00:12:33:58 - 00:12:54:49
Genevra Siciliano
Just going back to music, I know that you've already thought about songs that you want to have played at your funeral and I remember the first time we talked about it, I had a pretty dismissive attitude to it all because it just felt superstitious to me, like I'd be preempting things if I if I thought about

00:12:54:49 - 00:13:07:24
Genevra Siciliano
it. Do you want to share the five songs? Briget Kelly I just have to open up my notebook here if that's okay. 

00:13:07:24 - 00:13:23:04
Briget Kelly
I guess the first one that I like is actually an instrumental piece by Hans Zimmer, and it's from one of my favorite movies, which is True Romance, and it's actually called ‘You’re So Cool.’

00:13:23:09 - 00:13:51:01
Briget Kelly
But I didn't actually realize that until after I'd chosen it as my funeral song. But I love the fact that's the name of it. And, I just love this piece because it's not really morbid, but it's not really upbeat either. I've always loved that piece of music, right from when I first saw the movie.

00:13:51:01 - 00:14:12:30
Briget Kelly
It's one of the main things I remember about that movie. Genevra Siciliano Can I just interrupt for a bit? Because I knew you were going to say this song, and I listened to it again last night. And it's so you. And it's really joyful. A really joyful piece. And I was getting emotional while I was listening to and I had to tell myself to, like, chill out--

00:14:12:30 - 00:14:41:19
Genevra Siciliano
because Briget's not dead yet! (Laugh) Briget Kelly I think it does have a certain nostalgia to it though as well, even though it's got that joyfulness to it. And again, after I had already chosen this as a funeral piece, I found out that it was written for nine marimbas, and nine is my favorite number. I think they are beautiful instruments.

00:14:41:19 - 00:15:06:36
Briget Kelly
Another song that I really would love to have at my funeral is Hymn to Her by The Pretenders. Yeah. And I've always loved that song. And it really it just speaks to me a lot and it ties in with my own spirituality. But there's also another version of that song done by some Australian women.

00:15:06:46 - 00:15:39:54
Briget Kelly
And I love that version equally, partly because of those Australian women, women that I think are just amazing artists and Katie Noonan and Deborah Conway and Angie Hart and some other women as well. Genevra Siciliano You've always been a big supporter of Australian music artists. Briget Kelly Yeah, that's right. Another song that I would love to have at my funeral is a Cat Empire song, and it's called All Night Loud.

00:15:39:58 - 00:15:59:32
Briget Kelly
And it's all about, you know, them being musicians and playing all night loud and, you know, the relationship with the crowd and with the band. But I just see it as a metaphor for life. And I just would love to have that at the end of my my funeral.

00:15:59:32 - 00:16:16:34
Briget Kelly
Look there's a few others here that I don't know if I would have them at my funeral, but they're on the list just in case. One is called On the Radio by Regina Spektor. The other one is Forever Young by Youth Group. There's a few people who have done forever young.

00:16:16:39 - 00:16:21:10
Briget Kelly
And a song called Meet Me in the Middle of the Air by Paul Kelly.

00:16:21:10 - 00:16:39:51
Briget Kelly
It’s got very religious Christian overtones that it's actually got words from, I think probably some Psalms. I certainly recognize them from my Catholic upbringing. And actually that kind of goes against what I would ordinarily like.

00:16:39:51 - 00:16:59:11
Briget Kelly
But I've heard that song done live as well. That's where I first heard that song. And it was just, yeah, it was just so moving. And every time I hear a different version of it, it's very artistic and it's quite powerful, even though it's quite simple.

00:16:59:11 - 00:17:16:14
Genevra Siciliano
I'm going to put the songs in the show notes; if people want to look them up, then they can. I still can't bring myself to seriously think about songs I would have although there is probably going to be a Pearl Jam or an Elvis song in there. (Laugh)

00:17:16:19 - 00:17:41:03
Genevra Siciliano
But I can tell you what I won't be having. And that's, well, the English version is Time to Say Goodbye. The Italian version is--do I do this with my European pronunciation?! Con Te Partiro. (Laugh) By Andrea Bocelli.

00:17:41:03 - 00:17:48:23
Genevra Siciliano
you know the song? Briget Kelly I know the song, yes. Although I only just understood what the words actually meant.

00:17:48:24 - 00:18:19:03
Briget Kelly
I've heard it played at funerals but I never actually knew what the words were until I looked it up. Genevra Siciliano Right. Within my Italian community, every funeral I've been to, that song gets played. And the first time I heard it was at my grandfather's funeral, and it was to me, it just was just about death. And for a while I couldn't I couldn't hear it because all I could picture was the lowering of the casket.

00:18:19:08 - 00:18:57:58
Genevra Siciliano
And then I listened to it again this morning. And you can for me, I can almost like it. You can see these black clouds in human form coming to like, accentuate the grief and sadness in people that that's what I get out of the song. But yeah, I think I just wanted to talk about that because thanks to you, I've realized that we don't have to choose these extremely solemn, sad songs that, you know, that are designed to keep us in that misery, you know?

00:18:58:03 - 00:19:25:44
Briget Kelly
Well I think there's a few things with that Gen. Because now that I've read the words to that song, even though it is a solemn and sad song, and I completely understand how you feel when you hear it, the words are quite... I don't know if hopeful is the right word, but, you know, it's really about being being together in spirit even after somebody has died.

00:19:25:44 - 00:20:03:18
Briget Kelly
And so that's really quite beautiful. A lovely sentiment. And I think I think part of the reason why people have really sad, very hard hitting songs at funerals is because, uh, it's good to be able to access those feelings of sadness and grief, and it's hard for people to do that. So if music can take you to that place, even though that's an uncomfortable feeling for us, it's actually good for our grieving process to feel those emotions and access those emotions and process them.

00:20:03:22 - 00:20:34:21
Briget Kelly
Sad songs do have their place, but for me, I also feel like a funeral is not only a way to really help the grieving process, but definitely a celebration of a person's life. And so for that reason, I agree with you. It's great to have other types of music that aren't necessarily all kind of sad and doom and gloom because having music that celebrates that person's life is such a positive thing.

00:20:34:34 - 00:21:01:59
Genevra Siciliano
Yeah. And it is such a hauntingly beautiful song. Like, I tried to listen to it without thinking about, you know, my my grandfather's funeral. And, um, and then, you know, I tried to rewire it. I was like, what if I was, I don't know, doing everything backwards while this song was playing. Like, you know, because it's just a memory association.

00:21:01:59 - 00:21:15:14
Genevra Siciliano
I wanted to put this out to anyone that's listening. If you have thought about your songs that you want played at your funeral, let me know on social what they would be.

00:21:15:14 - 00:21:46:10
Genevra Siciliano
Cause I would love to hear that. Briget Kelly Yeah, I'd love that too -- I'd keep track of that myself to see what people put down. Genevra Siciliano So continuing with death and music, with Tina Turner, but also at the beginning of May, one of my favorite artists, Gordon Lightfoot died. I had never met anyone that had gushed over his music like I did.

00:21:46:10 - 00:22:06:55
Genevra Siciliano
So it made me a bit sad, and I went online to read all the tributes that were kind of pouring in about him. And that made me feel less alone. I just wanted to know if there were any musicians whose deaths you clearly remember?

00:22:06:59 - 00:22:32:29
Briget Kelly
Yeah, I've been finding, you know, I guess we're getting a bit older and so the older we get then those musicians that we've grown up with it's only natural that they're going to die. Certainly over the last few years there's been, you know, quite a few musicians that have been really part of my childhood and young adulthood, well their music has been anyway, and they've died.

00:22:32:29 - 00:23:00:50
Briget Kelly
And I've found myself, just kind of having my own little ceremony, I guess, and playing their music and just, you know, spending a bit of time celebrating their life and their legacy and their music. And often I try to play it for my son as well so that he can learn something about quality music. (Laugh)

00:23:00:55 - 00:23:29:37
Briget Kelly
I guess for me, a lot of it is this sadness, but there's also that gratefulness that those people, those artists were in the world and were able to make such amazing music and share that with the world. So that's what I tend to take away from it when musicians die.

00:23:29:42 - 00:23:56:00
Briget Kelly
But I have to say, when David Bowie died, I would never have called myself a huge fan, I liked David Bowie, but I had never seen him live, and I certainly couldn't name all of his albums and that kind of thing, but I just felt compelled to play his music every day after he died. For like 6 to 8 weeks.

00:23:56:09 - 00:24:28:54
Briget Kelly
It was like there was something whispering in my head: you have to play David Bowie. Like every day, play some David Bowie. Genevra Siciliano I think the whole world felt that one. Briget Kelly Yeah, Yeah. Genevra Siciliano So I just wanted to mention that we've tried to make this interview happen before (laugh), and I had felt like our past efforts just weren't really us--well, it was more my issue.

00:24:28:54 - 00:25:05:09
Genevra Siciliano
I just wasn't myself during the interview. So we're here again today, and I wanted to say that you've been pretty instrumental in in my startup phase as a podcast host, as I try to feel around for what my style is. And I just wanted to thank you for that, first of all. But one of the reasons that I felt like I couldn't make the interview work before was because I was trying too hard to make the death theme fit into this show with its premise of creativity.

00:25:05:13 - 00:25:28:38
Genevra Siciliano
And then recently you gave me the reminder that death is constantly explored in art form and I mean, I can't name any artists that haven't touched on death in one way or another. So it amused me that I couldn't think of that before. But with that in mind, let's move on to books, which is my jam because I'm a writer.

00:25:28:38 - 00:25:42:09
Genevra Siciliano
You gave me a list of books that you've read recently that touch on death. I've got that list here. Did you want me to say your list? Briget Kelly Yeah, you do that while I have my coffee. (laugh) Genevra Siciliano Okay.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:38:01


00:26:39:08 - 00:26:58:51
Genevra Siciliano
So we've got Cloud Street, Bridge to Terabithia. Did I say that right? Yeah. The Harry Potter books, especially Deathly Hallows, All Our Shimmering Skies, The Dictionary of Lost Words and Moonstone.

00:26:58:56 - 00:27:25:46
Genevra Siciliano
I'm going to again put these details in the show notes afterwards. But I'm curious, when you read about death in fiction, do you sometimes get insights that you can apply to your role as a doula? Briget Kelly Yeah, definitely. I do. In some ways it's perhaps quite subtle, but I still think it's really relevant.

00:27:25:50 - 00:28:06:28
Briget Kelly
I find now when I'm reading, or even if I'm reading lyrics or, you know, other forms of art as well, when I see death, I view it in a slightly different way. So sometimes it's that I can really relate to it. And when I'm seeing it in an art form, particularly literature, I'm really, I guess it's helping me to process my own grief and my own experiences and to consolidate those experiences a bit more, to feel into them a little bit more.

00:28:06:28 - 00:28:32:02
Briget Kelly
And then those other experiences that I read about that I haven't experienced in my life. And although grief is different for everybody, seeing a different experience of grief, in that form of literature helps me to learn about what it might be like for someone to go through that experience.

00:28:32:06 - 00:28:56:13
Briget Kelly
So that really helps me to be more empathetic and more understanding of those experiences. I feel like I get a lot out of reading. Genevra Siciliano And again, for the listeners out there, books that you've read that touch on death that have really moved you, I would love to, to hear about those.

00:28:56:13 - 00:28:58:23
Genevra Siciliano
So let me know on social.

00:28:59:25 - 00:29:32:32
Genevra Siciliano
Back to your list. Moonstone sounds interesting. Who wrote that?(laugh) Briget Kelly Well Moonstone is a book written by a new up and coming author by the name of Genevra Siciliano. Genevra Siciliano (laughs) Thank you for reading it, by the way. Briget Kelly It was my pleasure. I started reading it and I couldn't stop. And I was actually surprised at the... not the amount of death, but there were elements of death that I wasn't expecting from Gen.

00:29:32:36 - 00:29:46:44
Genevra Siciliano
Yeah, I know. It was really surprising to hear you say that because you'd always given me shit about never wanting to talk about death. Maybe it was just easier for me to explore through

00:29:46:44 - 00:30:00:31
Genevra Siciliano
Okay, enough about me. Your business is called Rhiannon’s Service. Tell us the significance of that name and why didn't you call your business your own name?

00:30:00:35 - 00:30:19:23
Briget Kelly
Well, I've never had a business before. It's a very new thing for me to be a sole trader. And as much as I feel like my business is about me and about my human experience and about me guiding other people with my

00:30:19:23 - 00:30:21:22
Briget Kelly
human experience...

00:30:21:22 - 00:30:53:58
Briget Kelly
I just thought, well, I'll just wait and the name will come to me. And, so much of the development of my business has been intuitive, and, that's come to me through various means, you know, through just thoughts that I have and meditation and, cards and crystals and, yeah, kinesiology sessions and (laugh) you know, coincidences and all kinds of things.

00:30:54:03 - 00:31:16:12
Briget Kelly
One of those things was, I was guided to do some goddess guidance Oracle cards, which I'd had in my house for about two years, but I'd never actually used before. But I just felt this strong need one day to get these cards out and have a bit of a play with them.

00:31:16:17 - 00:31:47:51
Briget Kelly
And in doing that, I pulled out several cards and every goddess that I pulled out had a message to me that really just resonated with me. And in the end I pulled out nine cards. I mentioned before--nine is my favorite number, and I just had this strong feeling that even though every card I pulled out had a real significance, that the number nine card was going to be the most important card.

00:31:47:56 - 00:31:52:29
Briget Kelly
And when I pulled out the number nine card, it was Rhiannon.

00:31:52:29 - 00:32:16:55
Genevra Siciliano
I'll hold it up for you. Briget Kelly The book has a little thing about the Goddess, and that was just this sentence that just was just so relevant to what I wanted to do about Rhiannon. It says “she lovingly carries souls from Earth to the afterlife plane, upon her trusty white horse helping them adjust to the transition of life after death.”

00:32:17:00 - 00:32:47:36
Unknown
And I just-- Genevra Siciliano 
That’s perfect. Briget Kelly Just perfect. And I just felt like my name had to have something to do with Rhiannon. And the fact that doula means to be of service... I thought that Rhiannon’s Service was a really... Genevra Siciliano So it just came together. Briget Kelly Yeah. Genevra Siciliano So you are someone that carefully and deeply considers the significance of things... like everything.

00:32:47:41 - 00:33:16:12
Genevra Siciliano
And let's take your son's beautiful artwork that you used for your business card. Just tell us, you know, about this painting. Like why it was perfect for Rhiannon’s Service. Briget Kelly Yeah, well, again, I kept on getting intuition. I had this picture up in my house, and I just kept on getting drawn to this picture and thinking I, I need to use that.

00:33:16:12 - 00:33:40:34
Briget Kelly
as my business card. Or, you know, but the more I looked at it, the more I realized there was a lot of symbolism, symbolism in that. And so even though this tree is dead, I don't know if you can see it, but at the base of it, there's these little flowers growing. There's actually a couple of branches on the tips that still have new leaves.

00:33:40:39 - 00:34:00:50
Briget Kelly
And then it has a path along the side, which is just going into the horizon. And, you know, to me, that's that's actually about life and death. That path could be going to the other world or the afterlife. It could be going to a new life. Um, it could be the path of somebody's life from birth to death.

00:34:00:55 - 00:34:23:51
Briget Kelly
And even just the colors of the sky, I just think are so beautiful. And they're not actually, you don't really know what time of day it is. It could be morning. It could be evening, you know, I just think there's so much symbolism in there. I love the vibrancy of it as well.

00:34:23:56 - 00:34:58:06
Genevra Siciliano
I'll put a picture of that in the show notes too so you guys can see it. Genevra Siciliano So knowing you and your style and you mentioned symbolism before, you do pay attention to signs and you seem to recognize that feeling, that knowing feeling when you perceive something as a sign, which then activates your your intuition and like even the way that you named your business is an example of that.

00:34:58:06 - 00:35:20:22
Genevra Siciliano
When it comes to decision making, if intuition is one tool and tarot is another--I think I read my first tarot card with you-- Briget Kelly Yes that’s right. Genevra Siciliano You also use the pendulum sometimes. Briget Kelly (Laughs) Genevra Siciliano Can you please tell us about that? 

00:35:20:22 - 00:35:55:09
Briget Kelly
So yeah, a few years ago I started to use the pendulum, and again, like the goddess cards, I actually had it sitting there for a couple of years, but I hadn't actually used it. I started using it for a very specific thing, which was related to some dietary kinds of things. But once I started becoming more familiar with using it, then I started using it for other things as well, and like all of these tools, I take them all with a grain of salt.

00:35:55:09 - 00:36:26:28
Briget Kelly
You know, I believe that my intuition is what's most important, not these tools, but they do just help to reinforce. Sometimes, to look at something from a slightly different perspective. Or make me think about something that I haven't maybe considered in that decision. So I find the pendulum quite useful at times.

00:36:26:33 - 00:36:50:37
Genevra Siciliano
Yeah. I've only had one pendulum experience, and it wasn't a positive one like yours have been. Mine was actually really scary. And, you know, I was in primary school, and my cousin and I were being silly with it. We were just asking it a bunch of silly questions and laughing about it. And so we weren't really being respectful of the process.

00:36:50:42 - 00:37:14:36
Genevra Siciliano
And I still remember the way the pendulum just swung out of control in her hand, and I knew that she wasn't orchestrating it. And we put that shit away (laughs) and we were like, Thank you, pendulum. We are now done for life. So you know, I admire that you were able to use it in more controlled conditions. But yeah, it wasn't for me.

00:37:14:40 - 00:37:28:49
Briget Kelly
I look, I understand that because I had a similar experience also when I was young with the Ouija board. And yeah, it really scared me too. I think you need to use what's comfortable. Genevra Siciliano Yeah.

00:37:28:49 - 00:37:41:27
Genevra Siciliano
So, the philosophical phrase: Memento Mori. It translates as remember death or remember you die and it's a stoic thing.

00:37:41:32 - 00:38:14:08
Genevra Siciliano
And I, I turn to it as a kind of strategy sometimes when I can't decide what I need to get done in my business or other parts of my life. And I wondered, I was wondering what your thoughts were like, whether you used it for anchoring, I guess. But then I realized in your line of work, most of the time you're coming into contact with people that are already facing death and they don't actually... they don’t really need more anchoring.

00:38:14:08 - 00:39:01:30
Genevra Siciliano
They're kind of already there. Are you helping them move through that stuck fearful stage? Briget Kelly Well there's a few things in there Gen and I think not everybody who is at the end of life is necessarily stuck in their acceptance of death and dying or their grief. Certainly some people do get stuck and there's a lot of different ways that people might get unstuck, but ultimately it's that individual person's journey and I can only guide them so much.

00:39:01:30 - 00:39:29:46
Briget Kelly
Or I would say that the end of life doula’s role is to really empower people to try and work through that. In terms of the memento mori, I know what it is you're talking about, but I can't say it's something I've used myself, really. But that concept of knowing that you're going to die, I'm certainly familiar with that.

00:39:29:51 - 00:39:55:14
Briget Kelly
But, uh, I think for someone with the experience that I've had where you've actually had to face death at a younger age, I've had that memento mori moment and then I've kind of worked past it. Genevra Siciliano Are you saying that you've never really needed it? Briget Kelly It's not that I've never needed it. I think it's just that it's...

00:39:55:22 - 00:40:44:42
Briget Kelly
I've worked through that, and now I've gone to a different place. When I had cancer the second time, I, certainly had, you know, a lot of thought, and a grieving process of recognizing that I might not live a long life and that I could die, you know, really quite young. And I processed that in four days while I was actually in hospital, which doesn't sound like a long time-- Genevra Siciliano It doesn't! Briget Kelly But it was amazing--I had time to myself to just to process it without interruption from visitors and, you know, I didn't have people kind of telling me what to think...

00:40:44:42 - 00:41:13:19
Genevra Siciliano
The more I think about it, four days on your own, with, zero interruptions is actually a long time. Briget Kelly Yeah, it was. And especially because, you know, in the hospital, there's really not much you can do. And, actually I didn't, I mean, I, I was in a ward with other people and there was this woman on my ward who was an older woman, and she had, she'd been seriously injured and, you know, they didn't know if she was going to pull through.

00:41:13:19 - 00:41:58:06
Briget Kelly
And we actually had some really amazing conversations over those four days and they really had a big impact on me. I really came out of that four days with a, yeah, a much better appreciation that I was going to die. Whether that was in a year or 20 years or whenever that was, that I was, I could accept that and understand that and I actually, I guess I evolved beyond that Memento mori kind of concept and my little mantra I guess became, “here for a good time, not a long time.” (Laughs)

00:41:58:06 - 00:42:06:26
Genevra Siciliano
This week, you went to a death cafe, personally, I wouldn't be caught dead there (laughs)

00:42:06:31 - 00:42:35:26
Genevra Siciliano
Sorry, mum joke! (laughs) Yeah, tell us what that was like. Briget Kelly Yeah. I've been wanting to go to a death cafe for a good couple of years, and I haven't been able to get to it, so it was really fascinating for me, and I was so glad to be there. What a death cafe is, is, an opportunity and a space for people to be with...

00:42:35:31 - 00:43:30:38
Briget Kelly
People with perhaps a similar interest or perhaps a need to be able to talk about death and dying for some reason without there being that, judgment or that awkwardness or, you know, certainly you can have the emotion. But it's expected because you're talking about death. And for some people, especially people that, you know, have either maybe been a carer for somebody or who have maybe had a terminal illness for a long time or, perhaps older people and just wanting to get ready for the end of life because perhaps family members or friends have not been able to talk to them about death and dying for various reasons.

00:43:30:43 - 00:44:01:51
Briget Kelly
A death cafe for those people in particular can be a really supportive place and safe place to just be able to talk about death and dying. And, you know, it's not only for people at the end of life, all kinds of people attend death cafes and, you know, there was certainly a mix of ages and experience at the death cafe that I went to the other day. Genevra Siciliano Was there someone, like counselors guiding the experience? Briget Kelly So, there was a facilitator.

00:44:01:56 - 00:44:35:47
Briget Kelly
There's not always a facilitator. Sometimes, it's a bit more loose, but, it's important, I guess, for me to mention it's not a grief counseling group, so it's, it's different than a grief counseling group. It's not there to support people's grief and loss experience. It's more there to have, a safe and open and welcoming space to be able to just discuss any issues that are related to death.

00:44:35:51 - 00:44:36:39
Genevra Siciliano
Okay. Yeah.

00:44:36:39 - 00:44:58:31
Genevra Siciliano
You said before that when you spent that four days in hospital, you came to an acceptance of death. For some people, do they have to... like, even though you accept it in the moment, you know how they say healing is an up and down process?

00:44:58:35 - 00:45:31:37
Genevra Siciliano
Does it come back once you accept? Briget Kelly Definitely. I think the best way for me to answer this question is by, talking about the stages of grief, which some people might have heard about or read about in the past. And that concept's been around for a while. I remember it from when I was pretty young, and the person that people might know is Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and she was the person that really identified and wrote a lot about the five stages of grief.

00:45:31:42 - 00:45:54:51
Briget Kelly
Since then, there's been some additions and changes made to that. So now, some people talk about six or seven stages of grief, but it's important for people to understand that in these stages of grief, they're not sequential, it's not a linear thing at all. You don't move through one and then go to the next one.

00:45:54:56 - 00:46:29:52
Briget Kelly
And then once you've done one, you know, you can go back to it... So really what these stages of grief are is that there are different ways of experiencing grief and processing and moving through grief. But they can come back, you know, in all different types of ways. And the thing about grief is that there's so much of it in our lives, we don't even always recognize that there's things that we're grieving about, you know?

00:46:29:52 - 00:47:05:19
Briget Kelly
So, throughout our life, we have a lot of losses, you know, that might be loss of a relationship, loss of a job, loss of a house, loss of a child, loss of our memory, loss of our independence, you know, all kinds of things. And, and loss involves grief. So, grief from one event in our life can sometimes come back at another time in our lives when we go through a different grief event.

00:47:05:19 - 00:47:44:28
Briget Kelly
And, you know, sometimes we don't even really realize it. Our brains are so complex and our hearts and souls are so complex, and grief is such a complex thing too. So, as much as four days was a great way to process that and understand that I was going to die, I'm sure if I get the news that I'm going to die, you know, sometime in the future, it's still going to hit me and it's still going to require some processing and some anger and denial and bargaining and all those stages of grief that people experience.

00:47:44:32 - 00:48:22:01
Genevra Siciliano
Just very quickly, what are the... can you name the stages? Briget Kelly So there’s anger, denial, bargaining, acceptance. I always forget one. But, I guess for me, when people talk about the six stages of grief, the kind of... the new one to the five is meaning, and that's a big part of one of the other things I do in my business, which is my my life story sessions program as well.

00:48:22:01 - 00:48:57:23
Briget Kelly
And I think having meaning in our life is so important for our mental health. Genevra Siciliano Just quickly, tell us about your your life story session. Briget Kelly So Life Story Sessions is a program that I've developed as a way to help people recognize and understand that they have had a meaningful life. And that is because, uh, having a meaningful life has been correlated with really good mental health outcomes.

00:48:57:23 - 00:48:58:05
Briget Kelly
It's...

00:48:58:05 - 00:49:23:01
Briget Kelly
Although, you know, I guess we're often feeling like we're on this quest for happiness, meaning is probably a more relevant, and deeper kind of thing to strive for in life. And if we can have meaning in life, then, you know, we can have a better quality of life.

00:49:23:06 - 00:49:55:56
Genevra Siciliano
And would you say that we feel the gratitude deeper when we have established that meaning or not? Briget Kelly Well, yeah, I think, you know... So I, I've designed my program to be offered to particularly people that are perhaps in a transitional phase in their lives, perhaps they’re older, and they have to leave their home and go into a nursing home or they've had a fall or an illness and have to maybe make a life change.

00:49:55:56 - 00:50:27:26
Briget Kelly
And that's coming back to grief because that's coming back to loss when people are dealing with grief and loss, you know, sometimes you feel like you've lost a part of yourself or you've lost a big part of your life. And what my life story program is about is really about people looking back over their life and recognizing that they've had a lot of meaning in their life.

00:50:27:40 - 00:50:57:29
Briget Kelly
And even though some of those things might be gone, there's still a great deal that can be taken out of that. And, and that just because the things have gone now, it doesn't mean that their life doesn't have meaning. Genevra Siciliano It's purposeful? Another word that you could attribute to that? Briget Kelly That's one of the... my life story sessions goes into the different ways that we have meaning in life and having a purposeful life.

00:50:57:30 - 00:51:27:46
Briget Kelly
So having a purpose in your life is one of the main parts of recognizing meaning in your life. Genevra Siciliano Okay, great. Well, if you wanted to chat to Briget about her life story sessions or other offerings, you can send her a message on social. I'll put the links in the show notes as well. Also, if you if you wanted some resources around death and dying, I'm pretty sure Briget will have a few that she can share with you.

00:51:27:46 - 00:51:45:37
Genevra Siciliano
I know she'll be an excellent help. Briget, my beautiful friend, thank you for being here and for being in my life and all the best with Rhiannon’s Service. Briget Kelly Thank you Gen. And thanks for being my friend and in my life, too.